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Joseph Burval
09.10.2017 20:56 , počet reakcí: 14 

Request for reading and interpretaton

http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/prohlizec/7099/?strana=57
Baptism of Francisca Havlicek. 30 June 1841. First entry, upper left. Please read this record for me. Also if you are able to, please comment on the following questions. Why is the name of the father, Frantisek Penaz, included on the record of this illegitimate birth? Is Frantisek Penaz the true birth Father of Frantiska? I know that Frantisek Penaz and Anna Havlicek are true first cousins. Is this why it is marked illegitimate? Why is there a line which appears to mark out the record on the Father. Any help interpreting this record would be most appreciated. Thank you.
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Marie Mackerlová
09.10.2017 21:46
Frant.is unmarried,recognition from the father is deleted.Father disagreed with paternity.
Is her own child? Here it is not.
Do you have their wedding?
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Miluše Urbánková
09.10.2017 22:59
It says that František Penaz said he is the father of this child and wanted to be written in the birth record as such. He did this in front of two witnesses, whose names are Nejedlý and Navrátil. This is standard text used when a man acknowledges being the father of an illegitimate child.

But then somebody crossed this text. Does that mean that František changed his mind? That he was not the biological father of this child? Who knows? Your guess is as good as mine.

It is mentioned that František made this declaration during the wedding. But you found no marriage record. So maybe it was supposed to happen (and the priest made this notice in advance) but then it did not.
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Joseph Burval
09.10.2017 23:07
Frantisek and Anna were first cousins and it is my judgement that the church or legal authorities would not allow them to marry and the church likely took the position that they could not even record the acknowledgement of paternity. However, it likely was already in the record so that all they could do is cross it out. From my viewpoint all I care about is that Frantisek is the Father and to me his statement says that. Thank you so much for your help in resolving this.
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Miluše Urbánková
09.10.2017 23:22
No no. It was possible for cousins to marry. They just needed a dispens from the church. Which would most likely grant it, as the bride was pregnant.

I have several married couples which were cousins in my family tree. It was nothing unusual. After all, most people lived in small villages where everyone was related to each other, so marriages among relatives could not be avoided. The church absolutely understood that and they gave dispens when necassary.
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Joseph Burval
09.10.2017 23:33
I will look again for a marriage record. But I would think that the church would never grant permission for two FIRST cousins to be married. It took me awhile to determine they were first cousins and I strongly suspect they may not have known that until someone brought it up at the time of the marriage or baptism.
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Miluše Urbánková
10.10.2017 00:35
Regarding first cousin marriages: The church probably did not encourage them, but they were possible. Although there was lots of paperwork involved because you needed a dispens from the bishop. Even today, it is possible to marry your first cousin.

Lots of famous people married their first cousins, for example Einstein or Darwin.
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Miluše Urbánková
09.10.2017 23:51
Unlikely, families were much closer-knitted than today. People usually knew the members of their extended family (unless they lived very far away). I find it hard to believe that two people who grew up in the same area did not know they were cousins. It might have been hard for you to find out they were cousins, but that does not mean it was equally hard for them.

But maybe they simply did not marry. Maybe the groom chickened out, or the bride decided she did not want him, or their families were against it... Regardless, a father could acknowledge his illegitimate child even if he did not marry the mother.i
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Joseph Burval
11.10.2017 18:12
Please read the comments and additional information provided by Helena Chvalavov below. Any comment you care to make would be most appreciated.
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Helena Chválová
10.10.2017 01:23
Anna and František wedding 8.2.1852 - http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/prohlizec/7104/?strana=53
the legitimate daughter Josefa, bottom right * http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/prohlizec/7099/?strana=69
he also did not recognize the paternity at Vincent - http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/prohlizec/7099/?strana=67
Anna was the daughter of František Horáček from Krátká and Mariana, the widow of Josef Havlíček from Kuklík
(see enrollment for unrecognized Vincent)
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Joseph Burval
10.10.2017 04:27
One of my more interesting ancestors. Let me make sure I have this right. In 1840 Frantisek Penaz denies paternity of Franciska with Anna Havlicek. Then in 1850 he denies paternity of Vincent with Anna Horacek. In both cases he uses the same witnesses. Then on 8.2.1852 he weds Anna Horacek (who he previous denied paternity of her child Vincent) and then 9 months later on 28.10.1852 he recognizes the legitimate birth of daughter Josefa. Wow!! Thank you very much Helena for your finding and reading those documents. It very much helps in clarifying what occurred.
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Helena Chválová
11.10.2017 01:36
OK,it is as you write
I will try to find out more :)
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Joseph Burval
11.10.2017 17:56
I suspect that Anna Horacek and Frantisek Penaz are second cousins. Mariana, wife of Frantiseck Horacek is a Mrkos and sister to Rozalie Mrkos who married Josef Havlicek. I also believe that the Frantisek Penaz declarations in 1841 (and in 1850) are as translated by Miluse Urbankova above. These statement ACKNOWLEDGE his paternity rather than denies his paternity. In both the 1841 and 1850 birth records I believe the Church DENIED the marriage and thus recorded the birth as illegitimate. Church Cannon Law would not allow them to marry if they were cousins without a dispensation. However, in 1852 it appears the Church granted the dispensation and allowed the marriage.
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Helena Chválová
13.10.2017 11:06
Anna's life as follows -
1818 * Anna's daughter Franz Horacek and Marina
1841 * illegitimate František
1842 wedding with Josef Havlicek
1843 + Josef Havlicek http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/prohlizec/7107/?strana=36
1850 * illegitimate Vincenc
1852 wedding with František Peňáz
but - I can not find the wedding of Anna's parents (František Horáček and Marina Neumeister)
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Miluše Urbánková
16.10.2017 20:06
Caution: the wife of František Horáček is mentioned to be Mariana STEHLÍK (not Mrkos) in the marriage record of Anna Havlíček née Horáček to František Peňáz.

The children born in 1841 and 1850 do NOT have the same mother. Mother of Francisca (Františka) born in 1841 is Anna, daughter of Josef Havlíček. Mother of Vinzenz (Vincent) born in 1850 is Anna, widow of Josef Havlíček and daughter of František and Mariana Horáček. The second Anna married Josef Havlíček in 1842 and he died in 1843. So in 1841 she could NOT be Anna Havlíček yet (neither married, nor a widow).

The mother of the child born in 1841 is a different Anna, and her father Josef Havlíček is also most likely NOT the same guy who married Anna Horáček in 1842 (that one was too young to have an adult daughter), they just have the same name.

Josef and Anna were fairly common names back then, and it happened more often than I would like that more people with the same first name and surname lived in the same small village.